Orrin Woodward Leadership Team

Welcome to my leadership blog. Ideas have consequences and the goal of this blog is to discuss ideas of consequence. Some ideas you may agree with and some you may disagree. No worries. The only rules are that you post under your own name and that you think and discuss in a civil manner. People who attack others only prove they have reached the limit of their logic. The Bible states, "Iron sharpens iron" and we will sharpen one another by what we read, write and think. The goal of this blog is to help us identify and follow truth in all areas of our lives. I encourage you to join our leadership discussion and transform yourself and others through the renewing of our minds.

Home

Orrin Woodward Welcome

This is the blog where leaders come to learn with NY Times, Wall St. Journal, USA Today, Money & Business Weekly best selling co-author of Launching a Leadership Revolution & Top 25 Leadership Gurus List Best of the Rest Selection - Orrin Woodward. This blog is an Alltop selection and ranked in HR's Top 100 Blogs for Management & Leadership.

follow Orrin_Woodward at http://twitter.com

Main Page

Previous:	MonaVie on the Move
Next:	Sheep, Wolves, Sheepdogs and Standing for Truth

Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Orrin Woodward on Thu 19 Jun 2008 10:23 AM EDT | Permanent Link | Cosmos

I posted an Update at the bottom of this article.

Here is another anonymous post from an Amway business owner in Australia. If the following comments are true - it looks like some of the issues that the 40% of the IBOAI board had in America were also systemic in Australia. Can anyone please confirm or deny any of the information in this post? I am looking for the truth and strongly believe that the Truth will set you free. I am going to give you my opinions and thoughts based upon what I know from my experiences. I know that in North America the percentage of Quixtar diamonds that did not repeat was extremely high. Laurie and I were at Diamond Club consistently and saw the vast majority of Diamond pins who never repeated and the fall back in numbers every year. Team approach had made our Team have the best in repeat performance of any organization in Quixtar. If Amway/Quixtar is growing, then shouldn’t they be proud to release the statistics on new diamonds and how many repeated in all their countries? I don’t foresee this information being released any time soon.

Why doesn’t Amway fix their business in existing countries vs. continuing to open new countries while allowing their business to flounder in their current markets? The new countries continue to make Amway profitable, but the current leaders in existing markets go backwards. This is not win-win and probably why you can sense the repressed anger in so many leaders in the Amway business. To continue to make billions of dollars and not provide a reasonable business model for the Amway faithful is very disappointing to the many leaders in the field that I met over the years in Amway/Quixtar. Amway can fix this by reducing prices and putting more money in their plan. This would improve retail sales and improve retention, but Amway would have to give up their coveted 30% margins. Nearly 10 times the margins that Walmart thrives with! That is some simple and free advice from a former top leader in your business. As a best-selling leadership author, I believe every leader has a responsibility to provide opportunities for the people following them. If the data presented here is true, then I believe there is a leadership challenge at Amway that must be fixed to help all the distributors in the field. Here is the comment that was posted on the Amway Australia Depressing News. Please help me separate the fact from fiction in this post. Just my thoughts. God Bless, Orrin Woodward

Hi Orrin. This an Australian Amway IBO (quickly on my way out) who has just read the post at : A critic visits the IBOAI. It is by Walter Bass' Grandaughter & her visit with Jody Victor. I am very interested in bringing up a few points about the content of her post & her meeting with Jody Victor about Amway. I think an Australian perspective on this might help some people see the plain truth - rather than the outright lies we have experienced in Australia.

1. She talks of the "horror stories that IBOs had to endure at the hands of their upline" & that Jody has heard these stories, that make him "cringe". Does that include the story where Bo Short, another former Amway Diamond - details the attitude of Jody Victor behind closed doors. Short outlines the how Jody Victor acted like royalty when a host picked up Victor from the airport and had music playing on the radio. Victor was reported to have said to Short "how come he wasn't told that we don't have music on in the car - doesn't he know who we are? - I am going to call Dexter and let him know that this sort of treatment is not on". If Short is to be believed (of course many current Amway faithful will disparage Short as a fake Diamond - who bought his 6th leg - of course Short was coached to do this by his system leaders & he fell for it - the REALITY is that 95% of those who have managed to reach Diamond once, never again reach that level of 6 Platinum IBOs. -

Oh & if this not true, then lets have Amway Australia publish all current/qualified Diamonds for 2008, 2007, 2006,2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998 - Just that ten year history in Australia would be an embarassment. Names that have appeared once as a qualified Diamond on our shores - never to have made the list again. Go back futher to when systems first began like Network 21 & IDA. Let’s see how many people went Diamond from the mid 1980's in Australia, through the 1990s. If Amway are looking to be transparent - that is their famous catch cry here in the land of OZ - then let’s see how many names are repeated more than once? They have the information - Why not release it, to see what success people have had at the highest levels in Amway. Now that would be a challenge I would like to see them meet.

Of course they & the supporters will have a "valid" (sic) reason as to why they can't. Again, the reality is this: releasing this information would blow the cover on how weak their compensation plan is, how terrible their turnover is in Australia. The past 8 years alone has seen the Amway Australia market become a joke. All the Amway initiatives, all the new products like Emma Page Fashion Jewelry & XS Energy drinks - have seen the Amway sales in Australia be less in 2008 than it was in 1990!

Please, for those of you are building an Amway business in Australia - ask yourself this question - how can Amway Australia sales be so less than 18 years ago? If the plan worked, you should at least be able to maintain ground or grow at least a little bit. I have not even taken into account what the dollar value was in 1990 compared to 2008? Anyone help me out? Does this mean Amway Australia has declined even further than a direct comparison of $ for $?

I you were signing up in Amway in 2008, would it not be "transparent" to show the new person the "real" history of the Amway business in Australia? Specifically the sales volume, the number of people who qualified at Diamond & then requalified (some people might be in for a shock if they knew certain "leaders" had not requalified ever - after a long Amway career) & the percentage of turnover of IBOs each year? - Transparent? yes! - likely - no way. Why?

Because if you knew this data up front, then you would be a complete idiot. You would show yourself to have no business sense at all. Why start something that simply is not sustainable & can be proven to be not sustainable. Oh it can be sustainable, only if you have have a massive turnover rate each year.

What does this say about those who still persist in building a their Amway business after many, many years. Are they happy to just keep the turnover rate going - knowing full well that Amway Australia is currently in a shocking position nationally - are they just going to sit there & keep asking the next groups of 20s & 30s to join them - knowing that if these people do succeed at any point on there journey - that in 10 or 20 years - long term history proves that their business growth will be either non - existent or less than when they started. Honestly, shame on the business leaders in Amway who know the facts (the transparent ones) & are willing to encourage people to go out & sign up more in the coming years.

If what I say is not true - then publish the "transparent facts" Amway Australia. The ones I have mentioned already.

The second portion of the post from Walter Bass' grandaughter is this:

"Despite claims to the contrary by certain disgruntled ex-IBOs, changes to the Rules of Conduct are laboriously hashed out; then announced to the general population of IBOs for MONTHS before they are enacted."

In Australia the above statement is an outright lie.

Emeralds & Diamonds were removed from a Luxury cruise trip in May 2008 based based on a "rumour" that they or their children or extended family were involved in Monavie. A $10,000 trip that they earned was taken from them - based on a rumour, that was not investigated or substantiated.

Who does this Walter Bass' Grandughter think she is kidding with her quote above. The legal department of Amway Australia can remove your bonuses, your earned trips your business - based on a rumour. If that is in the rules of conduct then those people who are currently building an Amway business in Australia - need to be given smelling salts. Why would you want anyone to sign up in a business where Amway legal can dictate the money you earn?

Take a long hard look at this information. Don't believe me about Amway's lack or success. Go get it from Amway Australia - get my questions answered. When you do (if) - check it out - present those facts at the next meeting you do in a one on one, in home group or public forum - see how many sign up or stay in?

Get the Facts:

1. How many people who qualified Diamond in Amway Australia 1985-2007 have requalified more than once? How many Emeralds? How many Saphires? How many Rubies?

2. What is the year by year sales data for the same period in real dollar comparisons?

3. What is the percentage turnover rate of IBO's for the same period?

After you have the facts - have long think about what you are doing building Amway.

Update: There are some great comments posted about this article. Some thinking that I should expose the truth and some thinking I should let the issue go. Here are my thoughts: A business will stand or fall on truth - just like a country stands or falls on truths. Ronald Reagan attacked the doctrine of the "evil empire" Soviet Union and gave hope to many people who were without hope. Reagan was criticized by many who were more into peace and affluence than justice. They told Reagan to not attack communism and get along with the evil regime. Reagan said to do nothing was equivalent to accepting the behaviors of the communist. I side with Reagan in this debate!

Amway must change and provide a true opportunity to the many great people that are left in their business. I received hundreds of calls over the years from former diamonds who had fallen back to sapphire and platinum. It is ruining people's lives and for me to sit back and do nothing is sheer cowardice. If you don't want the truth then don't come to the site. When I learn facts that can help the Amway company change then I will provide my advice free of charge. Amway must want me focused on their business since they are in litigation with me in multiple courts for attempting to leave their business peacefully. Read the following quotes from the founders of Amway:

A person who is not free to pick his job or occupation or to go into business for himself is not free. - Jay VanAndel

The man who becomes a great leader usually has a respect for his followers which is as deep and real as their respect for him. - Rich DeVos

The only alternative to free enterprise is to government ownership, whether you call it socialism or communism or any other name. - Jay VanAndel

The actions of the second generation and managers of Amway are rank hypocrisy to the founders message of free enterprise! I refused to stand by idly and watch the business collapse while I was inside of their company and joined the Board to promote positive change. I stood for truth and was fired by their managers. Either these statements from the founders were always untrue or the company has changed. If the founders do not know the truth then the only thing to do is to expose the truth and see if the families will correct this poor reflection on their legacy. I am not on a smear campaign, but I am on a truth campaign. There is no peace without justice. God Bless, Orrin Woodward

Posted to:

Main Page

Comments

Post a comment

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by squints98 on Thu 19 Jun 2008 12:28 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Orrin I love you and am on board to millions of people, but it seems like your blog has become blast Amway. Is there a reason for this. Or am I just focusing in on this to much. God Bless!! See you in Columbus!!

BBNQ

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Orrin Woodward on Thu 19 Jun 2008 01:39 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Squints, Wherever there is leadership and wherever there are issues to be solved, that is where I will blog on my free blog. Learn the principles and you won't repeat the failures. thanks, Orrin

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by DaveC on Fri 20 Jun 2008 08:08 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Orrin,
I was just reading Proverbs in the New Living Translation in my devotions. I think that Proverbs 24:11,12 applies to how you are telling how Amway is continuing to not do the right thing:
"11 Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. 12 Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts, and he sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done."
Thank you for accepting your responsibility and continuing to shed light on error. See you in Columbus in a few hours.

"Fire and Honor"
DaveC
(All Star Team)

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by ronin on Fri 20 Jun 2008 09:51 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Hi Orrin I am a former Founders Platinum from Australia who resigned (but was terminated... sound familiar?). I can concur with many of the points raised about the condition of the market here. For example, on my last Achievers trip last year to Hawaii, there were many "Diamonds" sitting back with in economy class with the rest of the Platinums and Emeralds. I raised this with one of the business relations managers who stated "we both know that many of the Diamonds on the wall on Castle Hill haven't re-qualifed in years". Out of respect, I will not detail the names in a public forum. There are of course some larger IBOs who have had their networks 'solidified' by overseas legs in growth markets in Asia and therefore maintain their qualifications. There's much more going on right now behind the curtains. I spent a few minutes earlier this evening speaking to former high level IBO about our common experience with Amway Australia. Thanks for your example with respect Ronin

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Ryan Hall on Fri 20 Jun 2008 02:30 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

I dont believe his blog has become blast amway by any means. As a leader if you saw a business model that hurt/restricted/opressed you in the past wouldn't you do something to help the people in the same position or at least educate those about it before they make a choice that could hurt them in the future? He isn't slamming amway/quixtar he is trying to help those who have been conned(or deliberately misinformed) into an opportunity of which they are 1) Controlled 2) Cannot Escape and 3) Are not told all of the facts up front (a facts such as an income disclosure, amway/quixtars ability to take away earnings based on hunches, an upline being responsible ,through loss of bonuses and earnings, for his downlines actions etc... etc... etc...)

Would you allow this to continue? or as a leader would you make a stand for what is right? That is a question you must ask yourself, but as far as Orrin's blog I believe he has made the right decision to put this information out to those who need to know it.

I totally support all of what Orrin posts about the injustice of the fake amway/quixtar opportunity for as the good book says "The truth shall set you free". Would you rather your leader sit idly by, and do nothing? Leaders lead from the front, and until amway/quixtar changes or is exposed for what it is I will support this endeavor.

Ryan Hall
Team OF Excellence

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by DaveC on Fri 20 Jun 2008 06:53 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Squints and anyone else who questions why Orrin keeps talking about Amway,
First, remember the Quote, "All it takes for evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing." and second, remember that Orrin is a watchman (or sheepdog, if you will) as mentioned in Ezekiel 33:1-7. Ezekiel 3:6 says, "But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." (KJV) As I see it, Orrin has the mandate, the responsibility, the requirement, the burden, the very command of God, if you will, to confront and expose wrong thinking on the part of the powers that be at Amway. Some offer the example of Jesus when he was arrested and tried and was silent before his accusers, but ignore that Jesus in the months and years prior to this did not keep silent about the wrong practices and teachings of the "scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites." I think that Orrin should be thanked for continuing to bring to light the continuing wrong practices and thinking of the leadership of Amway and his efforts to either change those wrong practices and thinking or warn those who would be affected to flee from the trap.

"Fire and Honor"
DaveC
(All Star Team)

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 03:51 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Doesn't BBNQ stand for Band of BROTHERS never quit!
That was my understanding, maybe I'm wrong.

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by kckarate on Thu 19 Jun 2008 04:03 PM EDT | Permanent Link

If anyone continues to cut leaders just to trap the remaining group to eke up their profit; then that is wrong and men like Orrin have a responsibly to speak up. And keep speaking up.

This isn’t just a matter of two differing opinions. Orrin’s quadruple success in MonaVie speaks volumes that some major things are really broken with his previous distributor Amway. Orrin is not willing to just enjoy his quad success. And he refuses to say I told you so. No, he is reaching back to offer a hand up when he doesn't have to.

Everything is not just a matter of opinion. There is real right and real wrong out there. As long as wrong continues to operate then we need to cheer on those like Orrin who are in a position to say something about it and lend a hand out.

This situation has challenged me to study right from wrong and fix it every day with the very life I live.

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by ibofightback on Thu 19 Jun 2008 09:50 PM EDT | Permanent Link

While I agree with your commentators points about Amway having been too focused on new international markets rather than consolidating and improving existing markets, some basic maths proves his assertion that "the REALITY is that 95% of those who have managed to reach Diamond once" is false.

The Amway Australia article on Amway Wiki lists 72 Diamonds and above. If 95% only reach Diamond once, then this means at most 4 have requalified at Diamond

Four? The problem with that is that 28% of Australian Diamonds have gone on to reach levels higher than Diamond, which they can clearly only do by requalifying as Diamond as well, and many of these have qualified at these higher levels within the last decade. Clearly, unless there's more than 400 "unknown" Australian Diamonds (there isn't), the posters claims are bunk.

If I look at the eight iboships who were already qualified at Diamond or above in the organisation I joined with 10 years ago in Australia five have gone on to qualify at higher levels. Whether the other three requalified or not I don't know, but clearly the rate is well above 5%. What's more, there's been at least 5 new Diamonds in that organisation in recent years. Perhaps your commentator needs to consider that IBO leadership matters as much, if not more, than any action (or inaction) that Amway may undertake.

As for the removal of qualifiers based on a "rumour", it's my information that is completely false. I believe the people concerned were asked to sign a statutory declaration regarding their involvement with Amway's competitors. Clearly you do not want people working for and with the competition attending your private business conferences discussing future strategies. These people refused to sign the declarations, clearly removing any semblance of "rumour" from the belief they were working with the competition.

Amway has faced serious challenges in various markets, and in my opinion there has been a failure of management and many IBO leaders to respond to market changes. It's a shame that, even with the "truth" being "bad enough", some folk feel the need to persist in spreading falsehoods.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Orrin Woodward on Fri 20 Jun 2008 02:47 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Where can we get confirmation on any of the facts presented? Anyone can put anything on Amway Wiki so how is this a credible source? I have been at many diamond club and will work on a report on the percentage of repeat diamonds in North America. The standing joke at Achievers and Diamond Club was that the English Speaking would need a translator since the vast majority did not speak English as a first language. If anyone was at an Australia diamond club, perhaps they can help us out. thanks, Orrin

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by ibofightback on Sat 21 Jun 2008 12:03 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Australian Amagrams (Because Magazine) from the last couple of years are also on AmwayWiki, they can be checked for confirmation of the more recent qualifications, including new Crown Ambassadors and Founders Crown Ambassador, as well as Diamonds and EDC. You are however correct - anyone *can* edit AmwayWiki, so if there's anything found wrong there, please correct it. Given this "editorial oversight" I would think it could be considered at least as credible as an anonymous poster on a blog, don't you think?

To be honest, the regular raising of "english speaking" as an issue by yourself and other Team members is more than a little concerning to me. North American IBOs all have the exact same products, at the exact same prices, with the exact same compensation plan, in the exact same market - it makes no difference if they speak English, Spanish, Korean, or whatever. What's interesting is that if you google Quixtar or Amway in Spanish or Korean then you'll get a lot less negative than if you google in english. There are obviously other issues, but I suspect "the negative" on the internet is a much bigger factor in Amway's struggles in english speaking markets than anything else. The corp. made a major blunder in ignoring this (and it's origins) for so long. I'm aware you tried to address this when a board member Orrin. Though not IMO with the best strategy, at least something was being done, for which I applaud you.

Given the same prices and compensation plan, and apparent success of the non-english speakers in North America, on what basis do you conclude the major issues are Amway's prices and compensation plan? Do you believe non-english speakers are for some reason oblivious to price comparisons and how the compensation plan works? If so, on what basis?

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Sun 22 Jun 2008 02:29 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Just to clarify that IBOFightsback is on every popular blog you find about Amway.
with the same fight that amyway is the best business still and that there no need for change. I thought it was important to point out. I'm not sure but, I had hear that Amway had people attend Major's to find fault or a new business. So I can't really take this post as a truth. Maybe those who are still going to put support behide Amway should, take a second look a just what this company has posted on their blogs.( Team just go,Misleader and so on) Then tell us how can they grow as a company in english speaking cultures. I'm American so from an American stand point if they behave in this rude opressive maner and refuss to fix problems.I'll just simplly find a new business to build as we have. Do people in all parts of the world have this ablity to just find a new business. My guess in no, their blown away at the fact there is "one". My bet for the future is that other networking business have a plan to move to these places just as amway has and same thing will happen in non-english speaking amway will fail.

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Matt DeMinico on Thu 19 Jun 2008 10:04 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Squints, the best instruction comes from other people's failures. It costs us nothing, but we can learn just as much (more actually because we can emotionally separate ourselves from the situation).

Proverbs 9:7-9 sums it up...

7 "Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.

8 Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you;
rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

9 Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still;
teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Thu 19 Jun 2008 10:52 PM EDT | Permanent Link

My husband has been a very successful lumber wholesaler for 35 years! We began in Quixtar 6 years ago. It didn't take him very long to begin to suspect there were "unqualified" pin levels amongst us. We were working hard building a good solid business. Helping others to think like leaders and business owners. My husband who is tough in business was very patient with people in our downline but expected more from our upline. The first big problem came from not being able to get accurate information from our upline. Everything was always secretive......no one would tell you what they were actually making, it seemed suspicious....They kept the cheese out in front of us..."Tool Money was coming if we got to a certain level!!" My husband started to doubt whether or not this was actually a legitimate business. We started figuring out that most of the Platinums and Emeralds that were at the Business Development Seminars, (as they use to be called), who were running the show, were not even re-qualified and hadn't been for awhile? This starts causing some major problems when you have people pretending to be something that they aren't...the Title, you know!! I asked my husband why they would continue to be recognized at a certain pin level if they really were no longer at that level? His answer was pretty good. He said, "Because they continue to need Worker Bees at the seminars and functions AND you wouldn't want anyone to know that "the business" wasn't really working!!" My husband is an excellent businessman and he took our Quixtar business seriously. We worked our guts out to get to Founder's Platinum. With the leadership skills he developed in traditional business, and the vision to win, he led one of our legs to Founder's Platinum and Q-12 in the same year that we went FP. When he was faced with the choice of us going Q-12 or our group going....he chose our team. It was because he knew, he had the confidence, we could catch it the following year. And after all, this was about building teams long-term. It was a grand celebration indeed!! We would do it over again the same way!!! This is the thing......there was so much stuff that was not the truth in Quixtar that it was almost impossible to keep gaining ground! Always 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.....Always a problem that no one wanted to solve....we went to mediation, but when people stop coming to the table to talk, it's over as far as fixing things! My husband wanted to quit long before we actually got out, but he is not a quitter and so he just kept going, it was one of the hardest things we have ever done! Our Double Diamond was always saying...."Just keep going, you can do it....if I was to bet on anyone to Go Diamond, it would be you guys!!!" So, we'd take another deep breath and keep running! There were just so many things that were not right, that didn't add up....like when our upline Sapphires kept our monthly leadership bonus check, because we forgot to take our "M" off one month....we were building a HUGE team underneath them, but THE RULE said you had to take the M off....so they kept it....we had all the records, we had the proof of sales, but nobody cared!! Quixtar didn't do a thing to help us get that money back.....after many calls to Quixtar we finally gave up, knowing that God was watching it all!! When we tried to get help from our Emerald and our DDiamond....all they did was tell us their own horror story!!! And then said, They were "Too far removed from the problem to help!!" OH BOY!! If our immediate upline in our area, would have left us alone and stayed out of our groups and stopped causing people in our business tons of doubt and confusion, I know that my husband's determination and great leadership abilities along with the ingenious DOT1STEP program AND the long overdue integrity and transparency that TEAM brought to Quixtar business builders....I know we could have been "successful" in Quixtar! When TEAM came onto the scene....it was a miracle and it kept us going and gave us a renewed hope in believing that the people we brought into the business could actually succeed!!! TEAM is the best thing that ever happened to Amway/Quixtar!!! TEAM was the LIFEBOAT on a sinking ship!! Amway made a big mistake not grabbing on and jumping in!! TEAM is doing us ALL a huge favor by continuing to expose Amway. They have to be held accountable by someone!!! We should thank our lucky stars the day that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady came into our lives at Quixtar and stood up with the truth and for the truth and said enough is enough!! They knew the real truth and they cared enough about the rest of us to tell US the truth as well!!! Does anyone else understand how valuable that has been to all of us who were working our guts out to get free??? How would we have ever found out this vital information??? Even if my husband and I would have made it to Diamond, we would have been owned by Master in the end!!! Oh how sad....and disappointing to know that you are living a lie, after as much time, energy and sacrifice it takes to get to Diamond!! That all the while you are getting people's hopes up....maybe for the very last time for some people.....they are taking a chance to give it one more try....to get their dreams....and you looked right into their eyes and YOU know, that they really aren't going to make it. Can you really lie down and sleep in peace???? You say to yourself... everybody before me has done it this way!!!! Well, I am very thankful that Orrin and Chris didn't!! My husband and I were not on the TEAM in the beginning, we were in Legacy, but we will be forever grateful for what TEAM has done for us. We are praying for all of you, who are still on the front lines. We love you all....Tim and Amy, Doug and Sheri, George and Jill, Bill and Jackie, and ALL the other TEAM leaders who stood!! Chuck Goetschel, we always knew you were the real deal.... and everyone of you who have stood for right!! You have been the bright shining sun in a very long dark tunnel!! Thank all of you!!!! Our faith is restored in Direct Marketing....that it really is, "an idea whose time has come!" Thank you Dallin as well!!! Thank you for a great product that we can believe in and share with others. Our faith is restored that the truth will prevail. It is a necessary evil to continue to expose Amway....Orrin thank you for continuing to bring information to us through your own sources. We appreciate that you keep us up to speed on global news as well as at home. We all need to do our own homework and research on the matters brought to our attention through this blog and other sites as well. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. Keep it coming Orrin!! God Bless

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by bhansen on Fri 20 Jun 2008 05:38 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

You couldn't have said it better. My story is very similar to yours. Thank goodness for Team. It is so good to be affiliated with men and women of honor and integrity. Were going to one million people.

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Tue 24 Jun 2008 01:25 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Thanks bhanson. What state are you from??

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by was1 on Fri 20 Jun 2008 06:44 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

well I am not surprised at the saga unfolding, we were founders emeralds q'ing for 10 years, had our 6 up however never got there. we left the game at the end of 03 after some horrific treatment from a'corp australia.
after reading the last post from australia it only confirmed our experience. 18 years of loyalty taken away with the pen of the infamous corporate solicitor. believe me the opportunity in amway has past it's use by date.
we moved back into the trad buiness and have never been happier making 5-6 times what we ever made (including a good tool buis) and still not working hard.. life is what you make it.
Hat's off the Orin and the team I have followed your plight since you put it online. you guys rock and deserve all your success keep it going!!
we joined MonaVie a couple of years ago however still have the bad taste from devoting the time and having all taken, still don't trust the companies in MLM. we have over 5k of members in the letf leg waiting to be built on. so we know it is growing. Maybe one day! the sweetness will come back..
I will confirm the fact that well over 80% of australian dimonds never re-qualified, they just never showed up again on the diamond trips, it is amazing what the trip photos revealed in the amagrams... it was a case of make it once and keep faking it!

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 08:33 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Great comment! I am relating to the "bad taste" and we too are hoping to get back into the race at some point! Thanks for sharing!!

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Dave Nelson on Fri 20 Jun 2008 09:17 AM EDT | Permanent Link

What else to call it?
Why would you support something you dont believe in?
Would you give money to stuff you dont believe in?
Most of us haven't conquered Steven Covey's first habit of being proactive instead of reactive.
I can see me being reactive until I decide to change to proactive and stop letting my emotional experiences control my responses.
It's not only Mr. Orrin Woodward saying what he says, it's Steven Covey, it's Earl Nightengale, it's Norman vincent Peale, it's Zig Ziglar,
" Help enough other people get what they want and you will get what you want". Sure they say it in their own words.
Ask yourself if you think Donald Trump would put up with what Orrin and Chris and countless other people have put up with in their previous business?
Donald Trump would say "this one's easy" "I should fire myself for even having you around, your fired".
Ask anyone whos parents owned land or business's in Cuba what it's like to have your wealth nationalized by the government, which is in effect what happened to Orrin and Chris, only by a company.
Do you think those people will ever forget??
Your personal achievements are stolen.
Would you like to be a dairy farmer and have someone come into your barn and steal your milk 7 days a week from cows you've loveingly raised from birth. Cows that you feed and personally take care of 24 hours a day? Cows that you provide playgrounds for, housing,
free medical care, free food of the highest quality nutrition wise?
How would you feel?
PS - Dairy farmers are having their milk stolen from them by middlemen and law makers who try to control the economy.
Like Jack Nicholson said in that movie with tom cruise- "you can't handle the truth".
Are we going to hide our heads in the sand? Or follow a leader?

The USA is heading quickly towards a two class society. The poor and those that are not. Cost are rising and many people are slacking and looking for the free ride on the government nickel but expecting to be treated like kings.
I can remember Dexter saying " my day is all I got" He couldn't understand those of us who complain about our jobs but blow our free time on entertainment.

Look at it this way, these two guys committed themselves to this and in 14 years look where they have come. Look how many lives they have changed for the better.
where do you want to be in 14 years? If we olny achieve a 10th of what they have done would it be worth it?

Look at Tiger Woods- when do you think the next Tiger woods will come along? When someone starts at a young age doing what he did.
Does Tiger teach leadership and golf? I dont know.

Does Orrin teach leadership, people helping and life building?
The answer is obvious? Maybe we should take more of what he says to heart and put it into actions.

My two cents.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 08:41 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Dave.....Your 2 cents were worth a million bucks! Thanks for sharing, it was well put!! P.S. You must have read, "Think Big and Kick A**" !!! Hah!

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by one_of_a_million on Fri 20 Jun 2008 10:24 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Orrin,

Doesn't "Amway" mean American Way? Is what they do the real American Way? If it is, then we should all be ashamed to be Americans. Personally I'm proud of our country and the opportunities we have here. I think Amway is giving all Americans a bad name. I think that Amways tactics would have worked better in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's. Instead of changing their name back to Amway they should change it to Natzway.

Just a thought,

Patrick

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 03:48 PM EDT | Permanent Link

I belive this is right thing to do. You can't say let this be the past. As it is been said here already evil only previles when the good do nothing. I like countless others suffered in this fight. No where near what top Team leaders did. My name wasn't slandered at the hands of so called leaders. This should never be over untill changes are made. This country of people are suppost to belive in a few certain things that make us Americans. Mainly that freedom is a god given right of every person on this planet. That is why almost every war in our history has been for the freedom of a people or nation to restored. Personaly I feel that this country will lose it's freedom if more and more people feel the need to let the past be the forgotten past. Right now congress is trying to nationalize energy, so the prices will come down and no one speaks out against it. The world has to few Orrin's and to many " just let it be" type people. Hey Orrin I stand tall with you. I can hear you they can hear you and soon the world will hear you. let there be no darkness for them to hide in. Let truth be the light.
God bless
Jeremy Hoagland

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 05:46 PM EDT | Permanent Link

we're the ones who should be sueing Amway,the very idea of indipendant business owners was a farce. They desided to call Amway Quixtar for a few years trying to get their "good names " back. Well, "People of integrity expect to be believed,and when they're not,they let time prove them right."Well The VanAndel's,Devoss's,and Yager's etal need to realize now that they have none,integrity that is. John W.Fisher

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 09:27 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Hi Orrin. I am the person who wrote the original article "outing" Amway Australia. I am very curious to see what has been said by others in response.

I would like to comment on IBO Fightback's comment.

In my original post I requested that people contact Amway Australia Management. You can ring them on 02 9843 2000. Ask for Amway Legal or the acting CEO, Mr Coldwell. (The previous CEO, Peter Williams resigned in April 2008 - did someone see the writing on the wall - under his guidance Amway Australia is sliding backwards, fast)

Why believe the data on Amway Wiki? How does IBO Fightback verify the comments on Amway Wiki???

I am not interested in the comments by a website - that website is no more valid than me saying 78% of Amway Diamonds in Australia re-qualify every year & make an average income of $375,000.

Just as a side issue, Amway Australia will not pay you a Diamond bonus if you have international legs. The SIP (Sales Incentive Performance) bonuses are paid on Australian legs. How many people are Diamonds in the Australian market - IE: they have 6 qualified - in country legs?

So again I repeat my original post: "Get the transparent facts".
(I have one additional question to ad to the list)

Before you go on building the Amway Australia business find out the following:

1. How many Diamonds qualified between 1985-2007 have re-qualified more than once. How many Emeralds, How many Saphires, How many Rubies? - this goes to the heart of the issue - is the business model sustainable?

2. What is the turnover rate on average for a Diamond group?

3. What is the average income made by a Qualified Diamond in Australia? How many years did the average Diamond take to achieve this income.

4. What is the Amway Australia sales volume for each year 1985 - 2007? In real $.

Lets stop the internet chat in its tracks. I am not asking anyone to believe or verify my questions with "further fake data" - I want all current, former & intending IBO's with Amway Australia to become aware or the THE TRANSPARENT FACTS.

Email, ring or arrange a meeting with Amway Australia management. Go and get these very simple & worthwhile questions answered. Then post the answers on Amway Wiki - then post them here.

Post the names of all those who are currently qualified & all of the names for each year: 1985-2007 who qualified. Amway want IBO's to be transparent - well now we want them to be just as transparent. Their own website says "money, time & lifestyle" let them prove it.

I challenge someone else to do this investigative work & report back. That way someone cannot claim that I am faking the results , just to prove my version of reality.

I am so confident that the results of this investigation - that I will let an outsider investigate my claims & report back.

The claims will be catastrophic - as I said originally - once you have the THE TRANSPARENT FACTS FROM AMWAY AUSTRALIA - YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE AN IDIOT TO KEEP BUILDING IT.

If any commentator is confident that my questions will be answered with data that reflects Amway Australia as a positive, profitable & successful business experience - then I will issue a retraction.

My article is written out of deep concern for Amway IBO's & those intending to sign up in Amway. I am an insider - I know what has gone on behind the scenes, I know who is not re-qualified even at the Diamond, Emerald, Saphire & platinum levels. I have been on many, many, many Australian Leadership Seminars with Amway Australia. I have sat around & chatted with key leaders in Amway Australia.

I have deep concern that people are filled with a "fake" promise of long term success, by those who still hold out hop that they can make significant money. This is the only reason many people buy Amway product - PV.

I am looking forward to seeing THE TRANSPARENT FACTS. I challenge all commentators to contact Amway Australia report
back to this website.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by ozamwayvictims on Sat 21 Jun 2008 09:51 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Thank you Anon for speaking out and revealing your truth as how you see Amway Australia. The Australian public and in particular, the Australian IBO's (current and potential) have been kept in the dark for far too long as to the state of the Amway business here.

We, at our blog have also been calling for true transparency in regards to Yearly Sales Numbers, Numbers of IBO's, Average Earnings, Retention/Attrition rates etc. We agree too, that how can anyone perform their due diligence as to whether the Amway "business opportunity" is a viable (and profitable) venture to commit to without such vital information.

For any current or potential Australian IBO's out there reading this, we also implore you to find out the cold hard facts from Amway Australia. We also invite you to submit your comments, stories, results of your research and any other information to our blog as well.

Thank you Orrin for taking an interest and concern in the goings on of Amway Australia and bringing it to attention via your blog. Silence, secrecy, deception, unaccountability and lack of transparency and information has reigned supreme here, we hope that with further dialogue and input from the public continues, so that the Truth can finally see the light of day.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by ibofightback on Sat 21 Jun 2008 12:34 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Actually, I support the idea of Amway, globally not just in Australia, reporting the names of requalifiers and other statistics every year. Not just for the accountability of Amway, but for the accountability IBO leadership. Afterall, it's not Amway demanding recognition as Diamonds at IBO seminars, despite not having qualified for years. As has been pointed out, Amway is happy to shove non-qualifiers back in economy with the platinums.

The real question is - who is telling prospects and IBOs that "diamond is forever?" Certainly not me, nor anyone I worked with when I joined. Indeed, I was repeatedly told that stability of income was far more important than pin level, and much better to be a solid Emerald than a once-off Diamond, never to requalify. What were you taught, and by whom? Perhaps more importantly - what did you teach and what did you lead others to believe?

Now, since I'm fairly confident I know who you are (don't worry, unlike our erstwhile host, I won't shout it to the world), then I also know that you know the data on AmwayWiki on qualifiers is roughly correct and that you were more than a little guilty of hyperbole in your post. You also know that , like Amway pretty much everywhere in the world, while 6 in-market legs are not necessary to qualify Diamond, you do need to be at least an in-market qualified Emerald (and Emerald Bonus Recipient) to qualify Diamond. None of this is secret, it's on amway.com.au.

Just like in the US, in Australia some organisations are growing successfully, while others are withering. Same products, same prices, same market, same compensation plan. While, as I mentioned, I believe Amway has absolutely been negligent and slow to change, they are not the only ones. Some people need to perhaps look in a mirror and see who is pointing back.

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Sat 21 Jun 2008 08:49 PM EDT | Permanent Link

This is the person who placed the posts about Amway Australia, that Orrin so kindly published.

Just a quick note to IBO fightback: Stop the false facts about Amway Australia. Stop telling people it is growing in some groups & expect people to believe it. Amway Australia sales are sliding backwards - not forwards. GET THE TRANSPARENT FACTS. What is their sales data from 1985-2007. All readers should only believe you when you have sourced the REAL facts. You do not meet my challenge. Call Amway Australia at Castle Hill - 02 98432000 & get confirmation in writing of my questions.

That way the public who read this don't have to believe you or me. That way the Truth is revealed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Tue 24 Jun 2008 07:52 PM EDT | Permanent Link

A simple question - how can someone go from being a new IBO to Diamond if they're group hasn't grown?

New platinums? Emeralds?

For platinums it has to be all in market volume, and every year there's new platinums, emeralds, and diamonds.

Clearly some folk must be growing, as much you want to deny it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Wed 25 Jun 2008 02:50 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Anyone with the RIGHT help and a HUGE push.....can get to a pin level. What Orrin and others are talking about is to be able to sustain one's business LONG-TERM! A business with a PROVEN system will do this. If you haven't ever reached Platinum, Founder's Platinum, Emerald, Founder's Emerald, Diamond, Founder's Diamond etc.....then it might be hard for you to understand the WORK and DETERMINATION to be able to reach these levels just ONE TIME!! And then STAYING QUALIFIED is a whole other game! Anything that is not duplicatible, we become a slave to! So...by the time you are a qualified pin level for a couple of years....you begin to figure out what it takes....and Diamond looks like a very, very HIGH mountain!! If you have enough resources (and it does take resources) to get you there....the chances of staying a qualified pin is very slim. If one is not smart enough to figure out what is really going on...(because we are taught not to question upline or listen to negative)...how are we going to fix the broken wheel.....when everybody pretends the wheel is not broken!! Like Eric's story....Upline can make it very hard on you if you Rock the Boat!! It has been very plain to see what happens to a TEAM who trys to fix the broken wheel (and they did fix it).....they get their car taken away!! The owners of A/Q like the broken wheel.....and if you don't they find a way to get rid of you!!! One thinks that Amway would like a huge, fast growing TEAM.....but they don't!! Right! They just want a few big Kingpins to keep people drooling!! They want a bunch of worker ants....with hyped up hopes of getting to the top. After 40 years of dropping bread crumbs...they have it figured out!!! We owe TEAM a huge debt for exposing the Pied Piper!!! TEAM went up against the giant....so the rest of us would have a FAIR chance at freedom!! You shall know the truth and the TRUTH will make you free!! Hope this helps you understand a little better!

Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Gary S. on Fri 20 Jun 2008 11:59 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

People need to understand that there's still people being enslaved by the mighty "bully" out there! I have more respect for Orrin Woodward now than I've ever had for the simple fact the man hasn't run and hid when he's had every opportunity to do so. Infact, there's still many people whom still don't have a clue what honor and duty are really about. With God as my witness, I've never met a more courageous person than Orrin Woodward. Not only has he paved the way for an average person like me to actually "have a shot" in life, he's exemplified what "community" is all about. TRUST- UNITY-LOYALTY-LEADERSHIP!
Can you imagine a person that would put it all on the line like that when it comes to running a town or city......or maybe even a COUNTRY??!!!
Leaders are dealers in "truth" and sometimes the truth can be very painful. I do know this, thanks to the TEAM leadership, the truth has set me free!!! I'm eternally grateful. Thank you Orrin.

Post comment:

Format Type:
	Convert newlines
Subject:

Comment:

Comment verification:

Please enter the text you see inside the graphic to post your comment:

You are not currently logged in. If you would like your user information to be displayed with your comment, please enter your login information below.