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Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Wed 02 Jul 2008 02:16 PM EDT | Permanent Link | Cosmos

David Steadson Fightback has accused me of aiding and abetting IBOs and former IBOs in their search for truth. I personally have never met nor talked with Trevor Chatham that I can remember so to accuse me of aiding and abetting him is silly. I received a personal comment from Anonymous Australian Transparency Guy that denies emphatically that he is Trevor or is working with Trevor. It would seem dangerous for Trevor to post on my blog if he has a court order against such postings. We all know how vindictive Amway can be for anyone who asks questions about their business. It would not seem beyond the realm of believability for an anonymous Australian in the know to state the facts and sift through the massive spin coming out of Amway lately. All the reader audience of this blog desires is for the plain truth to be shared without all the spin. For example, here is the latest communications from Amway Australia to the Australian IBOs according to Anonymous Australian Transparency Guy. Can anyone find any logical fallacies in the arguments in the memo below? The Anonymous Transparency author from Australia posted his comments on the Amway/Quixtar Sales comments, but I will not repost them here in order to refrain David Fightback from more accusations of aiding and abetting. Am I aiding and abetting David Fightback when I post his comments also? How can I aid and abet both pros and cons in a discussion? I thought this was the definition of a dialogue – a discussion of all the facts to determine the truth.

If anyone knows the facts and can discuss this post with an eye for the truth - please share your comments. I personally believe there is plenty of room in the MLM field for multiple competitors and I am disappointed by Amway’s constant attempt to downgrade competitors instead of fixing their own model. I would gladly leave Amway out of any discussions, but they continue to sue me and others who wish to be free to pursue our goals and dreams in a growing model. The coup de grace is that they recently sued MonaVie. Is Amway’s new slogan, “If you can’t beat them – sue them”? What kind of company sues their competitors who are beating them in the field of free enterprise and then proudly proclaims that they are the best opportunity? If they are the best, then they have nothing to worry about. If they are not the best, then no matter how many lawsuits, non-competes, or threats that Amway makes - it will not stop the flow of information and people to the better business opportunity in my opinion. Free enterprise works by allowing people to freely choose where and with whom they wish to do business. Rich DeVos taught this lesson many times in his Selling America talks. I believe the lesson did not pass onto the second generation based upon their anti-free enterprise actions. Here is the letter with no comments for Anonymous Australia Guy or David Fightback. God Bless, Orrin Woodward

This letter is from Amway CEO M. Coldwell: To Australian Ibos. June

WHY AMWAY IS THE BEST BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU

In an environment where copycat business and hollow investment and income

opportunities abound it's good sometimes to just remind yourselves why you joined

Amway. What are your dreams, your aspirations and what made you believe Amway was

the right business for you?

These are not rhetorical questions.

I'm prompted to write to you as a consequence of learning that a competitive organisation

has been targeting your line of sponsorship to build their business.

What does this mean? It means that certain IBOs have been persuaded to join this

competitive organisation and that they in turn have been prospecting for that organisation

within their group, possibly your group.

While this is disturbing it does happen from time

to time. As the biggest, best and brightest income opportunity in the world, Amway and

Amway IBOs will always be targeted by competitors who want to build their businesses

quickly.

We are used to these attacks and we stand by our plan, our products and you, the

people who make Amway the best in the business.

You are of course free to make whichever decision you would like in relation to your

future but as you consider your options I ask that you keep some important points in mind.

Amway has been in business since 1959. We stand ready to celebrate our 50th

Anniversary and we are akeady planning the next 50 years of business success.

'There are more than 3.5 million IBOs engaged with the Amway opportunity all

over the world.

Our collective sales continue to soar reaching US$7.2 billion during 2007, our

biggest year ever.

Amway has paid over US$27 billion in bonuses over the past 50 years. Add this

figure to the cost of incentive trips and other awards and rewards and the total

eclipses the combined payouts of other network marketing organisations.

We have over 700 patents already awarded and hundreds more pending, testimony

to both our past achievements and our investment in future product and brand

development.

Nutriway is the No. 1 vitamin and mineral supplement brand in the world. All

claims associated with our products have been approved in Australia by the

The TGA.

Amway only associates with the best. Rhonaldinho, the No. 1 footballer in the

world, 100 mere sprint champion, Asafa Powell, China's No. 1 hurdler Liu Xiano

and soon to be announced, an exciting new Nutriway sponsorship with someone

who many believe to be Australia's most popular athlete.

Consider all of this as and if you are ever approached by a competitive organisation

claiming to be 'just like Amway, only better'. Such organisations come and almost

invariably go.

Here are some questions to ask to help you determine whether an

organisation is likely to be around for the long term.

How many products do they have? The fewer the products, the less sustainable is

their business opportunity, especially if their product is easily duplicated by others.

Are their products approved by government regulatory authorities like the

Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia? If they're not, then any claims

they make about the efficacy or consequences of consuming their product are

unapproved, unproven and probably false.

How long has this organisation been around? Any company can achieve results in

the short term but most organisations fail to go on and achieve those same results

in the medium or longer term.

Can the organisation be trusted? Who are the senior officers and what is their

background? People who have shown a lack honesty or integrity in their past

business dealings are likely to repeat those behaviours.

Is the company a member of the Direct Selling Association and therefore a

subscriber to the Association's Code of Practices signed to protect the image and

reputation of the industry?

If you're not comfortable with the answers to any of these questions then I urge you to

think long and hard before being tempted to any opportunity other than the Amway

opportunity, indisputably the biggest, best and brightest in the world.

Your future is in your hands. Amway, like no other organisation, stands ready to help you

achieve your goals and aspirations.

Best wishes,

Michial Coldwell

General Manager

Amway of Australia. New Zealand

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Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by g.a.b. on Wed 02 Jul 2008 02:51 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

"Your future is in your hands. Amway, like no other organisation, stands ready to help you achieve your goals and aspirations."

P.S. And, when we want your opinion, well annex it to the IBO Rules of Conduct.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Garrett Mees on Wed 02 Jul 2008 05:45 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Your future is in your/OUR hands. Amway, like no other organisation, stands ready to help/HURT you AND achieve your/OUR goals and KEEP YOU IN aspirations/ARBITRATIONS."

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Hurting Inside on Wed 02 Jul 2008 04:12 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Amway: We are used to these attacks and we stand by our plan, our products and you, the people who make Amway the best in the business.

Go ahead and prove you stand by the IBO. I'm waiting.

Amway: You are of course free to make whichever decision you would like in relation to your future

You have to be joking? Seriously? You'll just let people leave peacefully? Is this document admissible in court along with the letter from TEAM leaders requesting peaceful separation?

Amway: Our collective sales continue to soar reaching US$7.2 billion during 2007, our biggest year ever.

That tends to happen when you open up a bunch of new markets.... Just wait for the drop, there are only so many markets you can open.

Amway: How many products do they have?

Nice spin... does it really matter how many products if none of them have a cost to value ration? Seriously, just because you have toilet paper available to you as an IBO (Amway Employee) at the cost of $7 per roll doesn't make it a good business.

Amway: How long has this organisation been around?

Two part answer:
A. This is a corporate letter... try spelling "organization" correctly.
B. Long enough to grow to near a billion in almost 35 years less than you did.

Amway: Can the organisation be trusted? Who are the senior officers and what is their background? People who have shown a lack honesty or integrity in their past business dealings are likely to repeat those behaviours.

I just realized it may just be an Australian thing to spell organization with an 's.' Sorry I am not that wordly.

Anyway in response to this statement... why don't you just put the noose around your own neck and jump at this point. I invite everyone to google Amway and see if they are to be trusted. Or heck, just read all the blogs that have sprung up since the Leaders of the organization decided to ignore the board, hurt their infield distributors by making decisions against their will that suffocate their businesses and finally spread lies about what happened on their websites. Oh and don't forget them suing anonymous persons on the internet for expressing their rights to free speech.

Amway

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by one_of_a_million on Wed 02 Jul 2008 04:27 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Orrin,

"think long and hard before being tempted to any opportunity other than the Amway"

I may be mistaken, I often am, but when is a temptation a good thing? I cannot think of one instance where I have been tempted with something that is good for me. In the Bible, isn't Satan referred to as the "Great Tempter".

Instead of using the word "tempted", maybe they should use a word that describes their opportunity better.

How about coaxed, coerced, intimidated, threatened, bullied, or maybe terrorized. Each of these fits well into the same sentence, and fits their company model and business practices.

Just a thought,

Patrick

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Wed 02 Jul 2008 05:16 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Here is Anonymous Australian Transparency's Comments to this letter that he had placed on an earlier post. I will post the comments here to tie in with this Amway Australian Letter. thanks, Orrin

How Amway Australia can fix their Broken business model

Point 1: "In an environment where copycat business and hollow investment and income opportunities abound it's good sometimes to just remind yourselves why you joined
Amway"

Amway meets the criteria of a hollow income opportunity. I have had 1000's of IBOs pass through my group since 1989. No-one has made lasting inccome, even me. The average business builder in our group never made more than their expenses. That is why they quit. The blow out costs of acquiring 100pv, the lack of retailability of Amway products to the average person. The number of people who qualified once at a high level in Amway Australia & no longer Qualify - the number of Diamonds with photos on the wall at Amway head office in Castle Hill - that have had to go back to a job - I know for a fact that more than 10 Amway Australia Diamonds on the wall cannot live off their Amway income in 2008. That does not count supposed Emeralds who cannot do this. The Amway Australia business also qualifies as a "hollow" opportunity becasue it is not sustainable. There are many Australian leaders who simply replace a vast quantity of people every year. Many Diamonds are in N21 & IDA have to keep inventing new methods of business building to replenish their groups as the years pass. Anyone who has been around Amway Australia for a few can verify this.

Point 2: Our collective sales continue to soar reaching US$7.2 billion during 2007, our
biggest year ever.

This volume has been done on the back of new, non English speaking markets. Amway Australia sales volume is dropping at a great rate of knots. This letter proves Amway are very concerned that people might look elsewhere - why - because the brutal reality is Amway is not working, it is exceptional for anyone to make money without ripping people off, asking them to purchase product at high prices - for a low PV return.

Point 3: How many products do they have? The fewer the products, the less sustainable is
their business opportunity, especially if their product is easily duplicated by others.

Amway has not been sustainable for the average IBO community with all the products they produce. This lack of sustainablity evidence is wrapped up in the Transparent Facts.

Amway refuse to answer how many people went Diamond in Australia 1985-2007. They refuse to answer how many are currently qualified, how many are Q12, how many names appear more than once for qualification during this 22 year period? Until they are willing to be honest to the Australian public - they are lying. If they are proud of their results, then why not show them. You will never see their true results because it will reveal the truth. Most Amway Australia Diamonds are not even close to being qualified - most after 10 years of activity. Many Australian Diamonds are not even Emerald. Some are not even Saphire. To the CEO of Amway Australia - stop lying to the Australian public.

Point 4: Can the organisation be trusted? Who are the senior officers and what is their
background? People who have shown a lack honesty or integrity in their past
business dealings are likely to repeat those behaviours.

It has been proven by people like Orrin Woodward, Chuck Goestchel and others that the senior officers are willing to lie to their distributors. In Australia it is the same. I have caught Amway Australia officals lying to me about issues like, price changes, PV adjustments, and making claims against other IBOs that are not true. They also lie when they ask IBOs in Australia to cop a $20 freight charge per box of SA8 compared to when it leaves the USA. It does not cost $20 per box to ship. This is a lie - but Amway Australia charge this much. Every time senior Amway officials are faced with a difficult issue, they lie to cover their job position. Check out the legal cases that surround Amway.

Point 5: I urge you to
think long and hard before being tempted to any opportunity other than the Amway
opportunity, indisputably the biggest, best and brightest in the world.
Your future is in your hands. Amway, like no other organisation, stands ready to help you
achieve your goals and aspirations.
Best wishes,
Michial Coldwell
General Manager
Amway of AustraliaA.{ew Zealand

Amway has never helped me or others build a business. They have just supplied product. All IBO leaders know that Amway managers cannot help the IBO body - there are too many of us - way to few of them. It is only the skill of the systems that have led Amway anywhere. But now, in 2008 - there are grave questions about Amway Australia's future - too many IBO leaders are looking elsewhere for their future - too many are replacing their groups. Very few leaders are qualify at their pin level.

Amway Australia has no chance of turning around the negative that the Australian public has. That will be proven as more and more people decide to leave the Amway Australia business and their sales continue to decline. Check back in 12 months - Amway Australia sales will have fallen through the floor. Keep watching.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by ibofightback on Wed 02 Jul 2008 05:31 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Something I'd missed, but I believe Chatham's gag order has been lifted, though not before he was found guilty of violating it.

If you had the integrity to link to the article where I discussed this, then people would be able to see that I clearly pointed out areas where the "anonymous" fellow had been quite obviously making things up. I notice he's rather pulled back from some of the more outrageous claims. "more than 10" of the Diamond can't live on their Amway income? So? Who is surprised by this? Amway never claimed "Diamonds are forever" did they? That's been more a mantra of IBO leadership.

Meanwhile, in Australia in the past few years there are new platinums and new emeralds and new diamonds and new executive diamonds and new founders executive diamonds and new Triple Diamonds/Crown/Crown Ambassadors and new Founders Crown Ambassadors.

It's obviously growing for some.

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Wed 02 Jul 2008 05:45 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

David Fightback, I will keep your post above on this site for one week. At that point I will delete if you do not have the integrity to state what group you are in, what pin level you are and what amount of income you are and have made in your beloved Amway business over the last 5 years. Someone who won't even enter the dialogue with their true identity should not attack another anonymous poster. You will not be sued by Amway for defending them so why not reveal your incredible durable results to prove the rest of the leaders who have fallen back are not using your audacious techniques? To produce a durable income and defend Amway wolrdwide is a story the rest of us desire to dialogue on. Your identity please or you have chosen to remove yourself from the conversations based upon facts and truth. Do not tell me your identity doesn't matter when we both know the truth. No more anecdotal - I have groups growing - I have leaders making money and all the other words that seem more like meaningless spew without confirmation. thanks in advance for your integrity! , Orrin

Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Wed 02 Jul 2008 10:23 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Hi Orrin. Australian transparent guy here. I would like to help you out with some parts of revealing the truth & the challenge you make to IBO fightback - (also remembering he refuses to answer my challenge of givng us the Australian Transparent Facts on Amway - 1985-2007 qualifed & requlaifed Diamonds)

I will not revel my name - because I know that Amway legal - Tony Greig - would find cause to sue me, like he did with Trevor Chattam. (Ex-EDC in Australia) .

However my pin level has been between Platinum & Saphire. I have made between $3000 up to $14,000 per month from my Amway Australia business.

The larger incomes were a direct result of sales of Jewellery and big ticket items on payment plans, like e-spring and air treatment systems. I no longer qualify at Platinum level.

Like most leaders I know in Amway Australia - there is not much in the way of sustainable profit. I have seen the need to continually replace people each year.

It is terrible, to ask people to join & know after a few years, that most will not be with you & most will never make any serious money - that includes the IBOs who actually put in effort over time. That is my experience, not the spin or bulldust that comes from IBO fightback.

IBO Fightback: answer my challenge - THE AMWAY AUSTRALIA TRANSPARENT FACTS -

ANSWER ORRIN - HOW BIG IS YOUR GROUP, WHAT SUSTAINABLE INCOME HAVE YOU BUILT?

WHAT DO YOU BRING TO THE TABLE BY WAY OF CREDIBILTY. IF YOU HAVE NONE THEN LET THE PUBLIC KNOW.

THE PUBLIC IN AUSTRALIA SHOULD LISTEN TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE HAD A GO & MADE IT WORK. NOT THE TALK FROM THE CHEAP SEATS.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Wed 02 Jul 2008 10:49 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Hooyah Orrin!!!!
Bob Lapo

Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Thu 03 Jul 2008 12:34 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Dear Orrin,

Like hundreds, possibly thousands, of others, I have been following your conversation with IBOFightBack. I have a keen interest to know the truth!

I wonder if you would also do the same of what you are requesting IBOFB to do, that is, which Amway group you were in prior to forming the TEAM, what was your highest pin level you achieved, how often did you requalify at that level since then and what amount of income did you make on a year-by-year basis in your ex-Amway business since you joined that company?

I hope it is not too personal to ask and appreciate your open leadership.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Thu 03 Jul 2008 12:51 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Anonymous, Not at all. If you read my Quixtar history link off to the side, it will give a fairly detailed history of my involvement with Amway and Quixtar and my upline. I qualified diamond in 2000. Missed qualification in 2001 - the year Chris and Terri qualified. Qualified founder diamond in 2002, EDC in 2003 and 2004. 2005 qualified founders diamond and 2006 and would of been 2007 EDC again. I made between 300k and 600k every year after 2001. My income in MonaVie in a couple of months has been higher than any single year in Amway/Quixtar. Another example of why Amway is not competitive. I received 400k in bonuses after 2 months in MonaVie and that does not include the free Mercedes, free trips to Zermatt ski resort, Disney World, 14 day Meditteranean cruise, and 12 person Penthouse Suite in Atlantis. Laurie and I also qualified for over 60 hours of jet credit hours on the MonaVie jet credits program. I won't have to fly commerical again for quite a while!! Oh and yes the tool incomes were 4 to 5 times higher than the Amway bonuses for all emeralds and above, but in MonaVie the tool side is 50% or less of our MonaVie bonus. If the bonuses go higher then we lower the tool prices even further than the 33% drop we already have reduced them. Now you know why I worked on the board for 3 years to fix this and get Amway to pay their leaders a reasonable amount for the incredible work involved! Now let's see if David fightback will be truthful and accurate. thanks, Orrin

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Thu 03 Jul 2008 03:10 PM EDT | Permanent Link

the tool incomes were 4 to 5 times higher than the Amway bonuses for all emeralds and above, but in MonaVie the tool side is 50% or less of our MonaVie bonus

Interesting to know, Orrin.

IBOFB has repeatedly claimed that Diamonds make only approx 35 percent of their income from tools.

Court documents have shown that Diamonds make substantially more from tools than Amway/Quixtar. Your statement backs up the claims of Hart, Stewart, etc.

- MichMan

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Thu 03 Jul 2008 11:53 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Thanks, Orrin, for your honesty and transparency. In my humble opinion, it is a loss to Amway to lose you and TEAM.

btw, what would you honestly say about the remaining IBOAI big pin leaders like Dexter Yager, Bill Britt, Jim Dornan, Ron Lee Puryear and even Asian leaders such as Holly Chen (Double CA), Kaoru Nakajima (Double CA), Peter and Eva (Germany), Leonard Kim (Korea) etc. Are they aware of the issues you raised, incompetent leaders like what Matt says in his posts or complicit in the entire picture?

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Wed 02 Jul 2008 11:43 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

David Fightback, Don't bother posting until you post the truth about your identity. My motives are clear in this - Amway fired me and called me a misleader. I analyzed their business and the business facts scream the Amway managers are the true mis-leaders! Why do you defend them and when will you tell the Amway Truth as your blog suggest? No more post until you post the Truth! thanks, Orrin

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Steve on Wed 02 Jul 2008 07:36 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Orrin,
I can't wait for this garbage to be over. I can't wait to read your posts on leadership again. I am not affiliated with Monavie or Quixtar, but I have been following what has been going on on your blog as well as others. (I do buy Team materials on Ebay whenever I can)

When things like this come up, there is usually two sides to every story. This is the exception to the rule. One can usually say, "I see both points." Not here. Continue to speak, write, and live the truth. I appreciate your honesty, openess, and character. I am sure what you have done (spoke the truth) has cost you some friendships and you have made sacrifices behind closed doors that most of us couldn't even dream of. Know and understand my wife and I are praying for you and your wife's strength. We are also praying for your close friends, (should be close to a million by now)and your kids.

Sincerely,
Steve

Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by BTCG on Thu 03 Jul 2008 01:39 AM EDT | Permanent Link

I second Steve's sentiments.

Post-Amway and pre-Monavie, I would occasionally send links to posts to people I knew would be good candidates for TEAM leadership products. Unfortunately, the recent unpleasentness has suspended that effort. I do wish Orrin would go back to what he does best, lead.

Now, I fully recognize that Orrin is the point-man for the post-Amway era, and feels the need to continue presenting facts to those IBOs still stuck in Amway, worldwide.

Keep up the fight, Orrin. I would love to see more leadership articles soon, rather than this troll-war with IBOFB.

Bill The Computer Guy
(never above 1500pv)

Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Thu 03 Jul 2008 01:59 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Bill, All of my leadership training will be within the Team site on my leadership blog and leadership section. I am still writing away, but not here currently. This is more current events and anything I feel like writing about to the public. thanks, Orrin

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Anonymous on Wed 02 Jul 2008 08:48 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Is Amway’s new slogan, “If you can’t beat them – sue them”?

I thought it was changed to, "Sue you on the beaches of the world."

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by BTCG on Thu 03 Jul 2008 01:47 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Orrin,

I like Amway dirt as much as the next guy - and I bet there are a lot of tipsters with data for you. Where are the 'big names' in the organization these days? Start with the IBOAI board, past and present. Who is still left? What happened to the others? I think that kind of anecdotal evidence, more than anything else, is proof of the health of the business.

Leaf through the Profiles of Success - how many of these folks still qualify as Diamond? I am too small a fish to know any of these folks - much less know if they are still a part of the "best and brightest opportunity", or if they shook the dust off their sandals at the Ada City Limits.

One question, though, Orrin, if I might be so bold. Given that your six monts are up (well, eight, with extensions), what lawsuits are you currently a party to? I say this not in the spirit of challenge, but just curious how many there were, how many you won, you know - scoreboard stuff. I looked at the FreeTheIBO site, and it appears that the latest info is Nov/Dec vintage. How about an update?

Thanks for all you do.

Bill The Computer Guy

Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Orrin Woodward on Thu 03 Jul 2008 02:01 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Bill, Every lawsuit is still ongoing from the arbitration, Team case, bloggers, Georgia, and Texas cases. If Amway thinks suing is the correct path and accuses me of hurting their busines then what explains the decline since 1980? This is nearly 14 years before I even signed up into the business in mid 1993! Just another point to ponder. thanks, Orrin

Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Chris Freeze on Thu 03 Jul 2008 11:39 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Amway's Australia letter is full of the usual lies and distortions, but the last suggestion--that belonging to the Direct Sales Association--somehow makes a company "legit" is expecially egregeous.

I filed a very detailed complaint with the DSA against Amway/Quixtar. I specifically listed the ways in which Amway/Quixtar directly violated the posted "Code of Ethics" that DSA members are supposed to adhere. Their response was to submit a copy of my letter to Quixtar for a response. Quixtar's response disputed four complaints THAT I DID NOT LIST IN MY LETTER and did NOT address ANY of the complaints I did list.

According to the DSA, case closed. Any comnapny that pays dues to that sham organization is suspect, in my opinion.

Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs

by Hurting Inside on Mon 07 Jul 2008 10:15 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Wasn't Devoss or VanAndel the head of that organization for a long time anyway?

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