Orrin, I believe that as great as your thoughts are on helping the "leaders" - (term used loosely) at Amway are, they are most likely falling on deaf ears. I pray that they do not take your advise as criticism and actually heed your warnings. What will it take for them to listen? There are thousands of people still in Amway in North America that really need a change. Hopefully, Amway will change for the better and not get any more bitter. On another note: I received the same email you mentioned in a previous post where Quixtar told us that "No one has ever left Quixtar and successfully started a competing business". This comment in the email would be laughable if they were not serious. Does this mean that the Hart's Mona Vie business is not successful? Or is it that MV is not a competing business? Because I'm sure the good folks at Amway did their research and found that the Hart's had a MV business. It just wasn't in competition with Amway because in order to compete with them you need to have a business plan that has 1. The same products you can buy at Wal-Mart - but pay more for through Amway. 2. A company that is run by attorneys - not a board or a president/CEO's. 3. A ridiculous noncompete agreement. 4. The friends, family, and acquaintances become the property of said company. 5. A business plan where over 85% of the "Ibo's" quit their first year. - Not using the "illegal" Team Approach. 6. A pay plan designed to produce riches for the owners and not the workers - the Ibo's. Since the MV business plan does none of these and actually works then MV is not a competing business. I'm sure they knew this and to this day can say that "No one - not even Orrin, or Chris, or Randy have ever started a successful competing business." Thanks, Patrick See you in Minnesota.