Orrin, The horse is DEAD. Quit beating it. The best thing you can do for a sinking ship is to be firing the flares, let the folks in the water know that the Carpathian is coming. All they have to do is tread water for six months, and they can climb aboart the USS MonaVie. I got boofed out of a career I spend 12-15 years working in, on, and towards. I let that miserable experience rule my life for 6 years, until my upline was finally able to snap me out of it. If I might be so bold - it seems you are falling into the same trap. Take your very precious time and continue to invest it in TMV, and wave a sad farewell to the wallowing hulk of Amway. And I say this as a 17 year vet of Amway. I still have products of theirs all over the house, like the flotsam of a wrecked ocean liner. Bill The Computer Guy